Mikrobasic Pro for PIC 5.61 Always saves project!

[CuriousOne]

Even if I click "no" !

For example, I opened some example project, made changes to it, and compiled it to run on the easy pic v7 board. Ok it runs fine. Now I want to close that example project, without saving. Program asks me, "do you want to save changes?" - I say NO. But when I open that project again, changes are saved !

[janni]

Actually, changes are saved whenever you compile the project. The question you get while closing may concern just the last change (though sometimes I see the same question without recalling any change being made to project ).

[CuriousOne]

So can be this feature turned off, so when I compile, nothing being saved?

[janni]

I'm afraid not.

[CuriousOne]

Bad.

The deeper I go into this, more evident the fact becomes that I just wasted $355 by purchasing this kit.

[janni]

The deeper I go into this, more evident the fact becomes that I just wasted $355 by purchasing this kit.

Why? Just because the examples were modified? You may always reinstall the compiler and for the future make copies before you play with examples.

[CuriousOne]

The main reasons are very poorly written documentation, without any sequental development of knowledge, and also as we can see here - buggy IDE. Why save and compile operations are tied together, is there any logical explanation ?


Also, no alphabetical list of commands.

Delay_ms() does not supports variable as argument, and a lot of illogical limitations.

And regarding the language itself. TRISB, LATB, etc. Where are description of these commands in manual? or SFR ? Mentioned many many times in manual, but no explanation or reference is given! Even the list of "keywords" does not contain them! Sure, they are somewhat discussed in the separate book "PIC microcontrollers programming IN BASIC", but it also has no logical organisation, architecture and things are OK, but everything is given in improper sequence and without proper explanations.

I was using parallaxs BASIC STAMP, but found it to be incapable for my demands. I was suggested to upgrade to Propeller, but it's SPIN language turned me down, so I decided to go with Mikrobasic pro, since it's syntax is more closer to classic basic and easier to understand, but, as it turns out, I did a wrong move.

[janni]

I won't answer for the compiler's developers decisions (saving all files before compilation was conscious choice, not a bug) or imperfections of the IDE, but I see now where your disappointment comes from. Indeed, coming from development environment which shields the user from processor innards, it may be a shock to have to learn quite a lot about the processor before being able to start programming. Well, that's a price one pays for flexibility. Try Microchip's own compilers and you'll be in the same situation. BASIC STAMP allows for easy start as it was specifically designed for that, but then, as you noticed, it also puts severe limitations to the programmer.

I'm afraid that you'll have to learn reading processor datasheets (and errata) if you want to start any advanced programming of small processors. TRISB, LATB, SFR etc. all come from processor datasheets and are not part of programming language. You may certainly use introductory books, but processors may significantly differ even within the same family and at the end only the datasheets are a reliable source.

BTW, there's Vdelay_ms procedure for variable delays.

[CuriousOne]

Ok, let me say a bit about myself:

Started computer usage in 80s, mainly worked with Z80 CPU as core for various real-time task handling devices - Such as scrolling text/overlay generators for TV, realtime process flow control and so on. Mainly used language was Assembler, so I have enough knowledge about general CPU architecture, what are registers, IO ports, etc. So, personally I have enough knowledge to understand all that being written (poorly) in Mikrobasic Pro manual, just needed a lot of time to search additional data online, since manual does not includes it.

You provided a great example, how poor the manual is. You said that Vdelay_ms() can be used for variable controlled delay. Great information, thanks. But why I was not able to find it by myself in manual? Let's check.

Here's the file, downloaded from your website: mikrobasic_pic_pro_manual_v101.pdf

I open it in reader, and try to search for "vdelay".

Ok, found it twice, but you know where?

Page 149: "The Vdelay_ms, Delay_Cyc and Get_Fosc_kHz are actual Basic routines. Their
sources can be found in Delays.mbas file located in the uses folder of the compil-er." No explanation what it does at all.

Page 437: Library example, just used in code Vdelay_ms(370) without any explanation again.

Ok, let's go now to the KEYWORDS page (172), which should list all keywords usable as operators/etc in the compiler. Again, there are no mentioning of TRISB, LATB, etc, but you say, this is hardware-specific, ok. But why no mentioning of vdelay ?

So, now you see what I mean by poor written manual?

Back to registers and other junk. The high level languages, to whom BASIC belongs, as I know, are such languages, that make development of code as less dependent on hardware, as possible. So why end user should bother for all that?

No personal offence, just facts.

[srnet]

And regarding the language itself. TRISB, LATB, etc. Where are description of these commands in manual? or SFR ? Mentioned many many times in manual, but no explanation or reference is given!

That is really a silly criticism, its not the purpose of the Mikrobasic manuals to teach the basics of the PIC hardware.

Definitations of TRIS and LAT will vary for processor to processor and the resource for these can only be the Microchip datasheets for the processor in question.

[srnet]

So can be this feature turned off, so when I compile, nothing being saved?

Out of interest, why would you want to ?

[CuriousOne]

'Cuz "let's try this, how it will work?" - "worked OK, let's save". This is normal workflow, don't you find it?

[janni]

Ok, let me say a bit about myself:...

Having some background in microprocessors will certainly help you, though processors' architectures differ (especially from different manufacturers) and there's no escape from getting into their specifics, which means reading datasheets. Using higher level language eases programming, but without operating system hiding the hardware, one has to know it in the same way as when programming in assembly. Naturally, in both assembly and Basic ready-to-use libraries may decrease the effort and mB has a large collection of them.

So, personally I have enough knowledge to understand all that being written (poorly) in Mikrobasic Pro manual, just needed a lot of time to search additional data online, since manual does not includes it.

Well, I never said the documentation is ideal . Though most of us use IDE's Help rather than the manual (I doubt many even read the latter). You'll find all library functions in Help - together with IDE description, mB reference and even some notes on PIC specifics.

No personal offence, just facts.

I do not represent mE and didn't write the manual, so I could hardly feel offended .

[CuriousOne]

Ok, so questions remain unanswered and problems remain unsolved. I'll try to sell this kit on ebay, maybe will get enough funds to buy someting more useful.

[janni]

Ok, so questions remain unanswered and problems remain unsolved.

Honestly, I don't know which problems you have in mind. Unless it's a problem to you to use Help instead of manual (which indeed needs updating, but it's "mikroBasic PRO for PIC user manual" not PIC manual). Anyway, if you need answers from mE, you'll have to wait over weekend.